Paradise Robotics Forum
Robotic Lawnmowers => Lawnbott => Topic started by: pellep on August 17, 2010, 07:29:47 AM
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My first calender year of robotic mowing is complete (LB3500) .
The good: the mowing quality is better than traditional mowers (IMO), and the time savings is significant.
The bad: It a word - reliability
So far I've had to replace 3 blade motors, the motherboard, a disturbance filter, and have had repairs to correct battery charging issues that have been well documented elsewhere. The mower has not gone more than 6 weeks without needing service. And I only mow 8000sq ft
All this has been performed under warranty which makes it easier to stomach, but what happens after next year? I can't imagine an increase in reliability as the mower ages. The rebuilding service has the potential to help, but I imagine I would have to purchase a spare to cover the rebuilding times.
I wonder what these repairs would cost out of pocket? $1500??
I'm trying to envision a scenario where this doesn't being a $4000 purchase that lasts 2 years. Do I attempt to keep up replacing parts and throw good money after bad? Or does this become a $2000/year mower that's retired after warranty?
Clearly the right answer is for KA to acknowledge the design flaws and be proactive about solving the problems, but I don't see that happening...
Thoughts?
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AMEN TO ALL OF THE ABOVE. Unless K A and Zucchetti get a handle on the reliability of their product soon, one of two things are going to take place.. The Government may step in and require them to put honesty in their advertising or they will just plane get a bad reputation with the public and lack of sales will force them out of business.
I feel sorry for all of the dealers that have to make up excuses for the reliability of the bot.
It is time for some Honesty from every one K A, Zucchetti and the dealers... Tell it like it is, not Reliable.... I am sure that I will hear that there are many, many sold that are not having any problems and only a few are having problems.. This is just an excuse.. If in fact there are only a few bad ones out, replace them with a reliable unit that the others have...
I thought I had it bad I have a 3200 and at present maintain about 33000 sq ft. with similar problems to yours..
You all should be sending letters to Zucchetti and KA. However all of my letters have to-date gone unanswered.
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That's the thing - I really, really, really want to like this mower. When it works it does a fantastic job. The installation is not a big deal, the software works well once you understand it, and my lawn looks great.....for a month or two and then I find it dead in the yard.
My dealer (who has always been very helpful) says these problems are not typical and many have reliable mowers. Maybe those of us who frequent the forums do so because of problems, and the majority of owners are fine and not vocal. This is how I rationalized the purchase. If this is the case, why doesn't KA replace the outliers? As you've all experienced, neighbors are enamored by the concept of the robot. So many are interested in potentially buying, but I can never recommend it because of my repair issues.
Such large opportunity costs for KA could be solved by addressing this.
So back to the "constructive" part of the thread- What are other owners spending per year to keep your bot running?
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My "Bubba" is in his first season cutting 7 days a week, 4 hours a day, 1/2 acre lot, and I have not had a mechanical failure yet. I cringed while writing that, and I hope it is not a jinx.
I try very hard to keep the Bot clean, the yard free of anything it could possibly run over, and do anything to try and prevent undue stress to "Bubba" to avoid any mechanical issues.
Therefore my answer is $0 so far.
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We do have many customers who never contact us and it is true that people who frequent forums are the ones having problems.
There is a curve for reliability called the "bathtub curve". Most of the problems with any product are discovered early in the life and at the end of the life. The middle of the product life can continue with no problems at all. If one gets lucky and has no problems early in the life of the product, they could have a long ownership with no problems until the end of the life.
Zucchetti and KA should work on reducing and eliminating the infant failures so many more customers can experience a long time with no problems until the natural end of life. Personally, I think the complaints will keep coming until they do that.
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We do have many customers who never contact us and it is true that people who frequent forums are the ones having problems.
There is a curve for reliability called the "bathtub curve". Most of the problems with any product are discovered early in the life and at the end of the life. The middle of the product life can continue with no problems at all. If one gets lucky and has no problems early in the life of the product, they could have a long ownership with no problems until the end of the life.
Zucchetti and KA should work on reducing and eliminating the infant failures so many more customers can experience a long time with no problems until the natural end of life. Personally, I think the complaints will keep coming until they do that.
I am sorry and do not mean to be rude, but a curve for reliability is just a bunch a garbage. This is just nothing more than an excuse as to the lack of quality in there products.. They have a Rolls Royce price with Yo Go quality... Sorry but this is the truth.. I did not purchase the bot based on luck.
If in fact, I got one of the so called few, that has flaws, then they should replace it with one that has no flaws.
I will tell you in 74 years I have dealt with a lot of different products and truly I have never experienced this much lack of quality...
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First, I ask that you post your info in the Survey (http://paradiserobotics.com/forum/index.php?topic=54.0) thread.
Second, I also feel it is hard to believe that if there are so few problem bots, why would KA spend the $$ during warranty and then watch the bots go up in flames out of warranty and not just replace the bot up front and be done with it? My opinion, all the bots are built the same. All have the same failure rates.
If there is any reseller that isn't being contacted by their customers, it is going to be because of two reasons.
1) they haven't had the bot running enough to hit that magic "hours used" number for the bot to start falling apart
2) they are going directly to KA with their problems. And, from my understanding, if I contact my reseller once.. and they tell me to call KA, why would I call my reseller again in two months when another motor fails? In other words, the resellers are not going to see the full picture on product failures.
Now, to answer the actual question, what do I feel will be my maintenance costs to keep the bot running? Well, from what I can tell, they want you to spend $800/yr for the "upgrade" if they make it available regularly. But, realistically, I could see you spending around $100 per year for replacement blades.. but that may go down after the first few years as you have enough extras to straiten and sharpen them as needed. Then, if you take a three year period, where I would be willing to bet that you will need to replace both wheel motors and the blade motor, so that's $1,000 total, divided by three years, so around $333/yr at that point + any additional blades. Now, if you are lucky, you can extend the blade motor for another year or so for only $50, but that is only if they are willing to sell you the part, and you have the ability to tear down and rebuild a motor. By now, you are toward your fifth year, which sounds like you will need to replace the battery, which is an additional $325 for that year and if you are lucky, you won't need to replace motors for another three years..
So, using a 10 year window and only 1 blade purchase per year, I see the maintenance cost of keeping these things working to be:
2 x batteries = $650
8 x wheel motors = $2,400
3 x blade motors = $1,200
Total = $4,250 / 10 = $425 / year
And that is if nothing else breaks, like a wheel, or caster wheel, or rear panel, or bump sensor, or motherboard, or PS/Charger, or transmitter, or inline filter, etc.
I'd say that is a minimum repair cost and we'd be lucky if it was just those I listed. When you see it like that, the $800 competition sure does start to look better.. Just toss it out every two years and your saving $50 and getting a whole new bot. Who knows, they might even last longer than two years!
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KA's latest solution communicated to me is to pay $600 for the "upgrade" to a LB3510 -- they think this would solve the problems. I'm not sure I understand the upgrade completely, but it changes nothing related to the motors, right?
Obviously, I'm a little hesitant to "invest" and more money into the robot if it doesn't offer a clear improvement in reliability.
Also, the though of paying KA $600 to achieve the function it should have arrived with the day it was purchased is upsetting.
Anyone upgrade from a 3500 to a 3510? Can you describe the real-world improvements?
Thanks,
pellep
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Well, I don't know for sure on the LB3500 to LB3510, but with the LB3200 to LB3210, you do receive new motors and a chassis to fit the new motors.
My only problem with the upgrade is if their current motors suck (and they do).. How do I know there "new" motors will be any better? Why spend $800 for an upgrade (with no guarantee the new motors won't fail in a few years either) when I can buy a whole brand new Chinese knock-off for the same price?
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I am sorry and do not mean to be rude, but a curve for reliability is just a bunch a garbage.
Didn't make it up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve
I used to work in a reliability department early in my career as an engineer (and very funny, it was for a company known for quality - Zenith). The bathtub curve is widely accepted in reliability circles.
There is no excuse, KA and Zucchetti need to figure out how to eliminate as many infant failures as possible. If they don't, complaints will continue...
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it was for a company known for quality - Zenith).
Hum can we say this? "it was for a company known for quality - Lawnbott)"? Just asking....